Outlander Cast: If Not For Hope

Posted by Blake Larsen

Outlander Podcast Hosts Mary & Blake discuss Outlander episode 4.11, “If Not For Hope”.

In this episode we chat Bree’s odd choices, finally getting some textured directing in this episode, and why Outlander must have called the Twilight props department…

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14 Comments

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Pat Jackson
· Reply

January 15, 2019 at 10:26 AM

The drawing of Phaedra reckoned me back to Jack’s capturing Claire’s image from Garrison Commander. Kind of a subtle homage to her Randall side!
Ned
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January 15, 2019 at 10:52 AM

Dear Mary & Blake,
Let’s start with Brianna’s motives for wanting to marry Lord John. Brianna is still reeling from her attack, and if she married any of those other bachelors, she’d have to sleep with them on her wedding night. She’s scared of another virtual stranger forcing her into a sexual situation that she’s not ready for. Because John is gay, she assumed that after the wedding, she wouldn’t have to do anything, except look the other way while he was with other men. Also being a friend of her parents, she knew that if Jamie and Claire succeeded in getting Roger back, that John would willingly give her a divorce, so she could then marry Roger. None of the others would do that. And look at this from Roger’s POV. He’s going to be told that she’s been raped, might be having his baby, and might have to stay in this time. If/when he came back, she was married to someone else, he might decide she isn’t worth it. But if she can truthfully tell him that she and Lord John really didn’t do anything, then he can’t be mad at her for marrying just to save face. Don’t forget that they are hand-fast. So Brianna is already (in some way) married to Roger. And he wouldn’t like the ‘other husband’ thing, anymore than Frank did. Fake fiancé/husband would be fine with Roger, but not a real husband.

So from Brianna’s perspective, is a perfect solution. But John shouldn’t marry into Jamie’s family. Jamie knows that John’s in love with him. And you shouldn’t get involved with someone when you have the hots for their parent. Just ask ‘the graduate.’ And let’s not forget that John is raising Brianna’s half-brother. Is she really supposed to be step-mother to her own brother?! Lord John is simply buying Brianna time, and getting Aunt Jocasta off her back. He has NO intention of actually going through with a wedding.

But seriously, WHY does Lord John keep getting into these messes with the Frasers. First Jamie offered to go to bed with him, and now his daughter’s offering marriage without going to bed with him! I can just imagine John looking towards the heavens and muttering “Give me strength.”
Moe C
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January 15, 2019 at 11:05 AM

Hi Blake and Mary…this episode has brought me out of my “lurking” state… I have read other comments on this site and others & I haven’t yet seen one that addresses what plans and intent Murtaugh would have had for Bonnet, once he captured him (had he not been captured himself). His directive was to capture Bonnet and bring him to Jamie, so that Jamie could do the honors and personally kill him. YET…the point at which Murtagh captures Bonnet, Jamie is still enroute TO Mohawk country and is MONTHS away from returning to North Carolina. So…what would he have done with Bonnet all those months, waiting for Jamie’s return??? There was no discussion between Fergus and Murtaugh ( or I missed it) that alluded to a “Plan B”, eg., “we have got to seize the moment and kill him while we can…Jamie will understand we had no choice”.. or.. “ I know of a great meat locker in Chelsea we can use ‘til Jamie gets back” ( New England local reference)…or “we can beat him senseless & sell him to the Mohawk” ( just kidding). I am sure that it all has to do with only 2 episodes left, writing, etc….but it nags at me.
Moe C
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January 15, 2019 at 11:15 AM

While I am out of lurking, I just want to mention that the way the writers set up the scene between LJG and the judge…SO out of character for LJG. One of his strongest character traits is DISCRETION. Therefore, his character is undermined and “thrown under the bus” by writing the scene in this location & in this fashion. Brianna’s “discovery” could have been written and produced in various other ways, including how it was described in the book.
- Charlotte Marks
  · Reply
  
  January 16, 2019 at 6:00 PM
  
  Just FYI, they discussed that in the Outlander podcast – they didn’t want to have Brianna wandering around outside; when I saw it, I figured the logistics would be awkward. (A lot of the show’s choices can be explained by considering that, BTW.)
  
  Anyway, it’s not the encounter that matters, but the aftermath.
Allison Indaburu
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January 15, 2019 at 1:40 PM

I’ve been reading a lot of comments about episode 411, and I feel kind of alone in my absolute adoration of this episode. Yes, it’s not perfect, but I found myself howling with laughter, and cheering out loud for much of the episode. I give this episode a 4.85, I thought it was terrific overall, and I’ll get right into it.
My Good is lots of things, the first is Marsali. She is such a strong, competent woman, I love how she takes care of her husband when she knows he needs a push or a pick-me-up, and doesn’t hesitate to make it happen, captain! Her boldness with the men around her, yet subtle way of getting things done is just brilliant.
Another Good is the interactions, or lack thereof, between Jamie and Claire. Isn’t that just how it goes in real life marriage when you’re fighting, or having a spat? Just this sort of miserable silence between you, that you can’t fix until you one of you makes the first step toward communication, and reunification? How you figure out how to articulate what is actually making you mad, not necessarily the other person, but just that there is so much other stuff making you upset or angry, and the tension just boils over and contaminates your relationship… I hate going through that, but it’s so true to life, and I liked that realness in the show.
Next, the Gauntlet in the Mohawk village is just brutal, but it shows you how far they’re willing to go to see which captives are “worth” having. Heck of a way to enter society, but that’s the bar they set. They want tough, resilient people, and if you’re soft, or weak, they have no place for you. You earn your citizenship in blood. This is One reason why the other tribes are so wary, and respectful, of the Mohawk.
Lord John Grey. Need I say more? Sure, why not, I loved him in this episode possibly more than any other. Having him enter the room, a sparkling Platinum Butterfly Koi in a room full of junk-waggling Guppies, oh gosh!! I cheered and clapped my hands in delight, as I had forgotten he was in this episode, so he was a lovely surprise. I also, upon the rewatch, noticed how HE noticed Judge Alderdyce as he left the room for Some Air, after Bree told him he was harboring Secrets…oh baby…LJG was gonna get him some of that!! I actually have an Outlandish Theory about this guy, that now we’ve seen Murtagh hauled off to jail, maybe LJG will use his “connection” with the Judge to have Murtagh pardoned, or set free somehow? I guess we’ll see…
My last Good is Bree drawing. I’m an artist, and figures are one of my favorite subjects, so I can honestly say I’ve done the same thing with people, seem them in just such a light, or in a pose, and just had to capture it. Also, some people have noted that Bree’s talent has seemingly come out of nowhere, but we’ve seen her draw the arches of stone at “Harvard” back in S3. So guys, calm down. She’s a bona fide artist, don’t worry about it.
My Bad…..was the odd and clunky bits of dialogue, but honestly these didn’t really retract from my enjoyment of they show, but the writing was just a tad hinky in places, and could have done with done polishing. Usually, the writers can pull out some amazing dialogue, but this one had a few missteps…
My GREAT this week is actually fantastic!! I keep fish as a hobby, and there is a species called Guppies that I just love, but I also use “Guppy” as a nickname for a certain type of man that displays a particular behavior. You see, male guppies have an external modified fin called a Gonopodium, which they use to fertilize the females. It is shaped like a tube, and the males can literally grab this tube with another fin to flip it forward to enable mating. They spend their entire lives swimming up to females, with their gonopodiums wagging, and they just try to put in any female, Or male, for that matter, if no females are around. They just want to put it in ya, and they just can’t help themselves. This episode is chock full of Guppies. Forbes and Wolfe are so skeezy, I just couldn’t stop giggling at how they were so unabashedly randy, and how transparent their intentions were, omg, they were such Guppies!!! Just wagging their junk, chasing any hottie that crossed their path!! Uuugghh, it was so terrible, I felt so bad for Bree, THANK GOD Lord John showed up to put those two wankers in their place!!! This whole scenario was actually my favorite part of the show, I just couldn’t stop saying OMG, THEY’RE SUCH GUPPIES!!!
I also noted the uncomfortable, slightly uptilted camera angle they were using at times when filming Bree here. It feels almost like you can’t breathe, right along with her, like your corset is too tight. Brilliant cinematography, and lordy, this episode is PRETTTTYYY. That verdant green walking and talking with LJG, the parlor, the woods, it’s just gorgeous.
All in all, I loved this episode, and can’t wait for next week!!
- Charlotte Marks
  · Reply
  
  January 16, 2019 at 6:06 PM
  
  I’m with you – I loved it. All of it.
  
  Listening to the show’s podcast helps explain a lot (though if you’ve read the books, that explains a lot as well). I’m just curious about whether Billy Boyd will return as Forbes, who as book readers know has an interesting (cough) role to play.
Dawn
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January 15, 2019 at 3:44 PM

Hi Mary and Blake:

I totally agree with you all, on every point. I’m such a Lord John Grey fan. Wow, he’s smoldering.

But jeez, that sex scene at Aunt Jocasta’s….It was totally out of character for John. It seemed like “sex in the alcove” was thrown in there specifically for Bree to see him and blackmail him. It was totally a plot device.

And it was cheap and cheesy to boot. Fear of discovery aside, Lord John is not a slave to his passions, in his dynamics with Jamie, he always played the nobleman, the gentleman. So I don’t believe that he would have middle of the night sex in the alcove when he was staying overnight in Aunt Jocasta’s house.

The episode wasn’t the best, but I think David Berry saved it all.

Please let the man have it’s own show!

Loved Marsali/Fergus/ Murtaugh. I’ve said before that Lauren Lyle looks like so much like Nell Hudson, they could be sisters.

I totally believed Marsali and Fergus as a married couple: She’s so wonderfully take-charge and yet maternal. There’s both a toughness and softness to her personality.

In this episode I liked her so much more than Bree even.

In the short scenes that we see Fergus and Marsali , I totally believed them as a married couple: Marsali showed her maturity and depth of love for Fergus. She was willing to let him go and fight with Murtaugh, even asking him, because she was so concerned for Fergus himself.

Fergus, even though he was depressed about his situation, decided to stay with Marsali and the baby because he was so concerned about them.

I finally got to see the Murtaugh/Fergus bond of season 2 and wanted more.

My bad was that BORING dinner scene, that psychology game…uggh.

Just a thought on Bree’s drawing–Didn’t both Frank and Black Jack draw? In the Garrison Commander Black Jack was drawing Claire’s face, and Frank mentioned in Sassanach that he often drew Claire’s hand because he missed her when they were separated during the war.

I agree with you though, it was thrown in there. If they wanted to establish Bree as an artist or an art lover, they should have addressed that as a core part of her character early on in the show.

Just some thoughts,

Dawn
- Beverly
  · Reply
  
  January 16, 2019 at 1:30 PM
  
  I have to say that, all things considered, the pantry probably was the safest place for Judge Alderdyce and Lord John. The slaves don’t live in the house, so there wasn’t much of a threat of being caught in the middle of the night. And neither one of them wanted to be seen entering and exiting each others’ bedrooms. Everyone else was sleeping upstairs, and the walls aren’t exactly soundproof. So this was probably the safest way to do that.
  
  I’m more worried about Murtaugh. Even if he breaks out of jail, he’s still in trouble because of the regulators. So how is he supposed to stay on the show, unless the charges are dropped entirely? I’m hoping that Lord John could help him, since he knows the governor. But obviously, Governor Tryon wants an example made of Murtaugh. And Lord John isn’t in any position of power the way he was at Ardsmuir or in Jamaica. He’s just a Virginia plantation owner here. So how could he get the charges dropped? Still, it is his role the save the Fraser family, whether it be Claire, Brianna or Murtaugh. I’d like to see Lord John help Murtaugh. Blake, you said last week that everyone could use a Murtaugh. But everyone should have a Lord John in their lives too.
Anne Fox
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January 15, 2019 at 4:17 PM

Love your podcasts, always have a LOL moment. This episode was not the same quality as the last several. LJG is fantastic, always outshines everyone. My theory on this episode, regarding Sophie’s stilted performance, is that this was filmed earlier than the Wilmington, Birds & Bees episodes. They film in blocks. David Berry comes all the way from Australia, so logic would say they filmed all his episodes together. Sophie’s acting was similar to earlier ones this season. She came into her own with the later episodes . I’m a book reader, LJG would NEVER be so reckless. He is always discreet. In the book Bree sees him coming out of a slave cabin. They maybe didn’t want to touch that, but I agree with you, so many easier, more logical places to have his encounter. I am also doubtful that they will rescue Roger by the end of the season. In the Indian village, they ran him through the ‘gauntlet’, a trial to see his worthiness. Very normal with some tribes of the time. The shower scene- they did something similar with the first season & Claire’s ‘confession’ to Mrs. Fitz ( at least for the preview trailer).
I was doubtful before the season even began, that they could fit this into 13 episodes. The book is over 1000 pages ! I just hope it is a logical ending rather than rushing to include everything.
Mickey
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January 16, 2019 at 11:03 AM

Hi Mary & Blake:

I am so thrilled to have discovered your podcast this season. I’ve been living with these characters for over 25 years now since I first picked up Outlander in high school, but I rarely have anyone to talk about them with. Listening to you both is like sitting down with the book club I never knew I wanted to be a part of!
I had to share my first show comments, even though I agree with just about everyone. I give this episode a 4.5 because it’s so good, but there are also just so many mis-steps that could have easily been fixed with better writing or filming.

My GOOD is Marsali and Murtagh. I’m with everyone else who loves any new moments we get between Murtagh and the other characters, but these scenes also reveal so much to us about who Marsali is and how wonderful her relationship is with Fergus. I always liked Book Marsali & Book Fergus, but the Show Couple is so much better than I could have imagined…

Which leads to my BAD. Show Roger and Show Brianna continue to be so much less that they should be. Oh, Blake, if you only knew how great Book Roger is. I feel for him the way you do about Show Frank. But here in the show, I just don’t get why these two are together; and I continually think Roger deserves to be punched. Maybe a few more times! Bree’s conversation with Lord John tracks with how I remember it in the book, and it makes sense how scared and desperate she would be right at this moment – and yet I still find myself angry with how she tries to blackmail Lord John in the show.

Which leads me to Lord John – my GREAT. Lord John is my hero! And David Berry brings him to life in a way I could never have imagined. Mary can have Sam. Leave David for the gays! ? The emotions of what his character go through hit me every time he is on screen in ways that he never did in the book. In this episode, his words to Bree about her father are so touching and true because HE GETS IT. He can imagine what Frank must have felt for Bree because he knows intimately what it feels like to raise a child not your own but to love it with all of your heart because it is one of the most precious things to the person you love the most. Ach – mo chridhe!

One additional note about the Roger opening scene. I decided to look at the scene not as a fake to the audience but as a look into Roger’s mind. He is briefly dreaming of how nice a real shower would have been if only he had chosen to go back through the stones. But he didn’t. He couldn’t. I believe he not only walked away from the stones, but purposely found the Mohawk so he could be recaptured as they represent his best shot at surviving and getting back to Bree. After all, right now, he’s just out on his own in the wild wilderness beyond any White civilization and without any resources beyond the clothing on his back and two hidden gemstones!
Nancy
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January 16, 2019 at 1:51 PM

Hey Mary and Blake,

as the end of season 4 is nearing, I realized how much I am going to miss your weekly dose of Outlander podcasting. 🙁 My kilt rating for this one is 4.7. As far as GBG goes it’s pretty much the same as Mary’s. So I am just going to add that I really wanted Murtagh to say: “The Frasers send their regards.”, when he broke into Stephen Bonnet’s room, aaaaaah that would have been awesome.

Until next week.
Sandlynn
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January 18, 2019 at 2:48 PM

I wanted to comment on a couple of issues brought up in the podcast and make one small observation.

The first, regarding whether Roger made a choice or not to remain in the 18th Century and why we didn’t see that, I think it’s possible that we *will* still find out what happened with Roger in the next two episodes. I think it’s possible he will tell Bree, Claire, and/or Jamie what happened — possibly as a way of showing his commitment to Bree. Or he may elude to his decision when discussing what happened to him to a third party. Something like, “I had a chance to get away, but I chose not to.”

As for Bree suddenly becoming an artist, it’s true that we haven’t seen her draw in the past in the show, that I can recall, but doesn’t Jocasta comment that Ellen had artistic talent. And — SPOILERS — book readers will know that Ellen was a painter and her work was on display, in her home, at Lallybroch. (And somewhere else too, that I won’t spoil.)

Lastly, I wanted to make one small observation. Did anyone notice, when Bree was walking down the stairs to greet Jocasta’s guests and she was shot from the front, that she definitely had a modern gait — a sort of heaviness to her footfalls that seemed more like that of a woman of the late 20th century who is used to moving more freely rather than gliding down the stairs as you might see from a woman used to wearing those constricting clothes? Maybe it was my imagination, but she really came off as someone not accustomed to gowns or to the posture and movements of a lady — a tiny bit like a Calamity Jane or Annie Oakley-type dressed in a gown for the first time.
Guittar, Karen
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December 29, 2019 at 12:37 PM

Bree’s drawing – remember during the class at “Harvard” with the whole Paul Revere had a better publicist thing, where instead of paying attention, she was drawing The Cloisters – all the arches?

And Jamie and Claire – Jamie believes that Claire is angry with him, disappointed in him, even thinks she too (like Brianna), is thinking Frank is the better man. Claire believes that Jamie is angry at her and blaming HER for not telling him about the ring and that it was Bonnet. It was heart-wrenching, and when they start to talk, it was beautiful.

Can’t wait for the new season and to hear your podcasts on each episode as it happens, instead of all this playing catch up that I’m doing now.